What "Nontraditional" Learners
Teach All of Us

Transcript:

Evan Meredith: 

By the time I got 25, I told my parents, "I'm not going to school for myself. I'm going to school for you." 

Christina Hasaan: 

You need to recognize that students are humans first. 

Frederick Shegog: 

I am a collection of people that looked beyond the darkening of the bubble on the app, and they saw that, you know what, this kid could speak. You know what, this kid got charisma. You know what, this kid has a gift. Let me show him how to use his gift to help other people. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

Today, we're getting lessons from the successful professionals who once could have been described as nontraditional students, the learners who juggle their work in the classroom with work on the job and or responsibilities at home. 

Welcome to the Horizons Podcast, where we take the inspiring discussions from the stage at JFF's Annual Horizons Conference and invite a special guest to help us move the conversation forward. I'm your host, Tameshia Bridges Mansfield. 

More than 70% of students today are classified as non-traditional, meaning they aren't single non-working 18 to 22-year-olds with no kids. Today we're exploring how traditional education and workforce systems can better support non-traditional students who often struggle to get ahead. Special guests, Kai Drekmeier will join us later in the program. 

Now let's listen in on the panel at Horizons led by Lisette Nieves, president of the Fund for the city of New York and JFF board member. Lisette is joined by three professionals who achieve success as non-traditional learners. Frederick Shegog, founder of the Message LLLC, and Evan Meredith, a graduate of Climb Hire, tell us why traditional education systems did not work for them. 

But first, Lisette introduces Christina Hasaan, a Temple University, and Hope Center graduate. 

Lisette Nieves: 

It's an honor to do this session, but I still find it kind of funny when we was talking about non-traditional students because the majority of students fit in the non-traditional category. So I have a question for each one of you, which is, what would you say to traditional higher education and employers out there, one or two things that they could do now to make it much more supportive for non-traditional students? How about we start with you, Christina? 

Christina Hasaan: 

Before they decided to take on the title of student, they were moms, dads, employees, individuals with lives. And being a student just makes it that much more complicated. You need to support the student outside of the doors. This is also for employers. When students graduate, I just did a month ago, they begin to look for their path in life. You have to recognize the humanity and these applicants, you have to realize that their resume not look like everybody else's, there might not be as many internships, there might not be as many jobs, there might not be any, but you have to see beyond that piece of paper and be willing to interview them anyway. 

Frederick Shegog: 

If we can take the tuition check, we should care about the whole student, because the reason we're here is hoarding of resources. So what I'm saying is, for me, I'm getting my MPA this fall. Please offer that online because some of us students have to work because college is not free. So the reality of it is if you offer it online, what that tells me is you understand everybody's not coming from a home where there's two parents, they're supported and they have all the resources they need. Understand the climate that you're in. The economy right now, we see that there's a wealth gap in this country. You know what that means? People have to work. So if you understand that, offer online support, that's what you have to do. If you're in higher ed, it is now 2022. It's not 1930 anymore. Wake up. 

Lisette Nieves: 

Alrighty then. See, there we go. So Evan, what is it for you that's going to help you do the thing that makes the most impact for you? 

Evan Meredith: 

I would say for me, this whole week we've been learning about how talent exists everywhere and we need to learn and share on finding new ways to get this talent that's been hidden and overlooked for so long. And a person like myself, not having a college degree, but mostly having the skills that I've gained through work experience, working on property management for six years and my sales, I really feel like there's a lot of talent out there that exists in so many different places that can really benefit employers. And what I feel like we need to do as employers, as recruiters, as investors, is, we need to really sit down and understand that we're all interconnected and intertwined with one another. And we really just need to put in the work and the effort to see there's talent that exists everywhere in this world. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

Welcome back to our studio. I'm now joined by special guest, Kai Drekmeier, co-founder and chief development officer of InsideTrack. InsideTrack takes a strategic approach to coaching learners and advising educators with the goal of setting students up for success. Thank you for being a part of this important conversation. Kai, welcome to the podcast. 

Kai Drekmeier: 

Thank you, Tameshia. It's great to be here. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

Great. So before we dig into our panel discussion at Horizons, can you tell us a little bit about the origins of InsideTrack and how you were serving students today? 

Kai Drekmeier: 

Yeah, from the beginning, our approach at InsideTrack has been to provide fairly intensive coaching to students with the goal of helping them clarify their long-term goals, create clear and practical plans, and address all of the challenges that life throws in front of them. 

Nowadays, we're using a lot more technology and provide all of the coaching remotely, but at our core we're very much the same. And I'm proud to say that our mission of improving social mobility and reducing equity gaps is very much alive and we've had a big impact on students and student success over the years. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

Okay, great. And I look forward to diving in a bit more and connecting it back to the conversation. So Christina, Frederick, and Evan all made the case that they are just as valuable to employers as college students who take a more traditional path. So just a few years ago, United States colleges and universities were reporting that more than 70% of students were considered non-traditional, meaning that they were entering college late or taking time off and returning to their studies further into adulthood and navigating a lot in their lives and doing so. Do you have any idea of how these numbers have shifted or changed as a result of the pandemic? 

Kai Drekmeier: 

Yeah, the pandemic caused enrollment to drop across the board here in the US. By some measures, enrollment dropped from the spring of 2020 when really the pandemic got underway to the fall of 2022 by about 7%, which is close to 1.3 million students nationally. And this did affect community colleges and adult-serving-type programs disproportionately so as students return, they're more likely now to be classified and understood as post-traditional or non-traditional. I like the expression post-traditional because the chances are that they're now part-time, working, and not living in dorms. 

Additionally, many institutions and community colleges in particular are really in need of enrollments right now. They're down. It's affecting their budgets and causing multiple challenges. And with the knowledge of this demographic cliff coming, I don't know if that's something everyone's looking at, but the fact that in the last great recession of 2008 following that, birth rates declined and all of higher ed is aware of this coming moment 18 years after that, which will be 2026 when we're just going to have fewer students in the system overall. 

So post-traditional adult learners become much more important to the institutions themselves. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

And so they're needing them to make the adjustments in order to be able to serve them better so that they can continue their studies and matriculate at the end. So can you dive a little bit more into who are these students and then what is the incentive beyond the demographic cliff, but what is the incentive for schools and employers to get students back into school and towards a path of earning a degree? 

Kai Drekmeier: 

Well, these students represent a really broad spectrum of American society, but they tend to be working economically emergent, meaning not wealthy and first-generation. I just really think it's important to note that while these students are more likely to struggle with money and time issues, they have extremely valuable life skills that they developed through their experiences. They often are just going to be more efficient, more inclusive, productive, able to navigate complex systems. And so really this is ... if you take a strength-based view, there is a ton of potential with this broad population of post-traditional or non-traditional students. In terms of why we need to support them better and support the success of post-traditional students, it's really three reasons. 

Number one, social justice imperative. It's just we have to recognize that here in the US, there is so much rich evidence in history that points to the fact that where someone is in society is not just by their own bootstrapping or failure to bootstrap, but the system and our economic system has played a big role in that and we have a responsibility to correct it and create greater equal opportunity. 

Secondarily, we need a skilled workforce. There are many high-skill, high paid jobs that are left open and that's a problem for everyone. And so this is a great population to focus on to create a ready workforce. 

And then finally, I mentioned this earlier, but we are heading into a persistent enrollment crisis, which I think is going to cause some transformations in higher ed, but in the near term, as we figure out how to adjust, these students are going to be very important to the colleges. And so colleges really need to step up and think, "Gosh, how are we serving them and can we serve them better?" 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

I want to ask a follow-up question to the point that you made about these students having really valuable skills that have been developed by their life experience. And I think the conversation with the panelists that Lisette had really demonstrates that. Can you talk a little bit about how you approach coaching to really pull those skills out and help both the students and their institutions recognize their value in those skills, particularly to your second point about the needs of employers needing a skilled workforce? So how do you bring those to the forefront in your coaching? 

Kai Drekmeier: 

Great question. In any effort to help a person or a group of people do their best and be their best, a strength-based approach is going to be way more effective than trying to identify or create perceptions of deficits and catch-up work that needs to happen. That ends up being not intentionally maybe, but it ends up being disparaging and suggests an identity of "Hey, maybe you're not ready, maybe you shouldn't be here." 

So number one, we need to be extremely respectful and strength-based. Two, I think it really is for any individual helping them think what is it that moves you, what did you want from life and what is your purpose. And to define that and then start to focus on really creating action plans. On the institution front, I think everyone has moved from feeling "Hey, are these students college-ready?" to realize "Is the college student-ready?" Is the college itself, the institution ready for these students? And taking that kind of institutionally introspective view of thinking, "Gosh, how can we do better?" And to really listen to and witness the students is extremely helpful. And what emerges is that the things that are going to be helpful and supportive to post-traditional and non-traditional students are going to benefit everybody. So there's such an opportunity for institutions to transform and improve themselves. And if we had more time, I'd go deep into that, but we probably don't, but that's another topic for us. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

Yeah, thank you for that. Let's return to the stage as the panelists take us down their roots to advancement and the programs that help them get there. Again, the conversation begins with Christina Hasaan, a graduate of Temple University. 

Lisette Nieves: 

Thank you. I'd love for you to tell me, because there wasn't a single person here who got to where they are at by themselves. So I would love for you to tell me about the program that leveraged your talents and helped you see beyond. 

Christina Hasaan: 

So the Hope Center is a research center based in Temple, and I found out about it in a class that I was in. And as I told you, I had already been advocating for student rights at the Community College of Philadelphia. When I returned at 26 years old, I realized all of the holes in the system and all of the things that didn't fit me. So when taking class at Temple, I found out about the Hope Center and it sort of gave me the words, the language, the vocabulary to what I was already expressing that I wasn't getting the services for food that I needed. I didn't have housing support. 

The Hope Center really offered me the opportunity to be a voice for students. So right now, I'm leading a subcommittee for the governor to advise him what parents need in universities. In Pennsylvania, I'm meeting with parents that are from all across the commonwealth and are struggling with all kinds of things, and we're covering topics from finance to childcare to tuition. And I would've never been able to understand the complex issues that parents face because I know my singular story. This allows for me to see a broader spectrum of what's actually going on with other people. 

Sometimes when you're going through struggles, it can be isolating, it can be lonely. When I'm sitting down with other parents at other universities, there's a community that's built that's like, "I'm going to go out and I'm going to let them know what you're telling me. I'm going to let them know that this legislation needs to change. I'm going to let them know that the system isn't working for us." And the universities that are there care, they really care and they really want to change. But this platform, this opportunity right here, I wouldn't have had without the Hope Center. 

Lisette Nieves: 

Frederick, how about you? 

Frederick Shegog: 

It was a village of people, which I like to call the Freddy Village. That village was not only the Hope Center, not only Dr. Sarah, but it was the janitor in the building. 

Lisette Nieves: 

That's right. 

Frederick Shegog: 

It was the lunch lady. Let me tell you why. Because a lot of times, we look at the people that just opened doors. What about the people the days I wanted to quit and I was tired, and they said to me, "Hey, keep going." So it was a village of people that inspired me and believed in me that kept me going, which then allowed me to meet people that had the keys to the doors. 

And because they did that for me, guess what I'm doing now? Making sure I'm lifting them while I'm climbing because how could I get here and not care about the kids behind me, hence the company that I have. So that's how I got here. 

Lisette Nieves: 

All right, thank you. Thank you. Evan. 

Evan Meredith: 

Well, being an alumni from Climb Hire, I was able to get the soft skills. I was able to get the hard skills to break into the tech industry. And prior to Climb Hire, I didn't have a college degree. I wasn't passionate about school. And I then went on to work in property management for six years, and I had all of my friends telling me, "You need to get into tech sales." They were sending me all these job descriptions. I had no idea what SaaS meant. 

I thought FinTech was a type of swimwear product. And I then stumbled across Climb Hire on a LinkedIn search. So then I went to the Climb Hire website, read the About Me, saw needs on the CEO's video, and I got a call from our program director and she let me speak with a fellow that was going to be teaching us through the customer experience cohort. And I was able to see the outcome. I was able to see a fellow who went through the Salesforce admin track, six months later, landed a job in tech, became an alumni, and became a fellow and gave it back. So I'm very passionate on giving back to the community that helped me in giving back to others to help combat a major issue in society. 

Lisette Nieves: 

Talk about like a particular tactic or strategy that Climb Hire helped you to do with your resume, particularly in tech. 

Evan Meredith: 

I mean, the biggest one was social capital. I've always had a LinkedIn profile. I've always had connections working in property management. I just didn't know how to engage with those contacts. And through Climb Hire, I got the confidence and the courage to talk to general managers, reach out to vice presidents. I'm talking to them on the daily basis, exploring staffing partnerships for my current company. And to be able to ask for money, you need to be comfortable on speaking to anybody in the room around you. And I believe I was able to also enhance my empathy skills, being a part of Climb Hire, which I think is a very huge asset and skill that you need to be very successful in sales. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

Welcome back to our studio. Let's continue the conversation with my special guest, Kai Drekmeier of InsideTrack. Kai, let's examine Evan's final point. He was really feeling left behind, but that can happen really to anyone in these rapidly changing and shifting sectors. Are traditional education systems really shifting their perspectives to really find these students and get them on the pathway to success? And kind of piggybacking on our last bit of our conversation. 

Kai Drekmeier: 

Honestly, I'm very hopeful. We'll always have systems and people who are slow to change, but I think we're seeing a new level of responsiveness and responsibility. It is becoming the norm for faculty, staff, and administrators to feel if "We don't reach out and express high expectations to every student and give them a chance to get the support they need and focus time in, we're the ones who have failed." So shifting the responsibility a little bit more to the institution itself and thinking how can we do better? How can we get better? 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

And so how do we work with traditional educators to actually do better and to lean in that way? And how should we expect the landscape overall to change for these students going forward? 

Kai Drekmeier: 

Students need relationships and access. While there's so much emphasis on technology these days, as we try to innovate and improve things, the most important innovations have to be around scaling good human practices. Colleges, both traditional-serving and post-traditional need to invest in making sure that all students feel seen and heard and gain comfort, seeking and receiving support. And I think that's critical. I think if we're not careful, we are accidentally damaging folks' sense of inclusion and confidence. And if we are intentional, we can correct that and create just an environment that's far more fair for everyone. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

I agree. It is about that intentionality that institutions and systems and all the actors in those spaces have to do to kind of move in the direction and the vision that you're laying out. Let's get back to Horizons for a final question from Lisette to the panel. 

Lisette Nieves: 

Frederick, I really appreciated the piece you talked about the context you're in that dependent on the day anybody could help shape your mood, could inspire you, right? If there's one action that you could take today that's going to be different because of being at this conference, what would it be? 

Frederick Shegog: 

For me, understand that I never thought that I could travel with a country and keynote and speak because I was told one time when I started this, "What are you doing keynote and you don't even have your doctorate yet?" But I thank that woman for saying that, and I owe her a bottle of orange juice. I'm going to tell you why, because what that told me is I'm in a world of gatekeeping, so I have to work double hard and I have to use my pain that I've been through to be my greatest fruit and I need to know how to market it. So what I did was instead of crying, I started learning the language of higher ed. I started reading, I started talking to other people that were keynote. And what I figured out is, now that it was hard for me to get through that door, I got to make sure the people behind me don't get to that door. 

And what I'm going to do is I'm going to make sure when I bring people in my building, I'm not just looking at your resume. What do you bring to the culture of the building? Who are you? Are you a parent? Are you married? Because whatever I hire, I hire your whole life. I'm not just hiring you as an individual and what your skillset is. Because maybe you're good and you have your degree, but you might not feel the culture of my building. So that's what I need people to do that are hiring. Stop saying "We don't have the funds," we have the funds. Allocate them right. What questions are you asking? Until we start doing that, we're going to historically continue to be in these situations. So that's what I'm asking. 

Lisette Nieves: 

Christina, how about you talk to me about going through this experience, what is that one action that's going to be a little bit different you're going to do going back? 

Christina Hasaan: 

So I have to pick a big off Freddy. The last two days I've been here, first of all, I felt so blessed to be here. It's amazing, but all I got was shock and awe. When people saw Temple University, they're like, "What department? Where do you work?" I don't work at Temple. I'm a student. And they're like, "Second question, how'd you get here? Why are you here? What are you doing here?" I don't want that for anybody else, which means we need to normalize students coming to spaces like this. 

I was speaking to somebody about it and they said, "We're talking about essential workers around essential workers. Everybody that serves us here, everybody that's waiting on us here ..." 

Lisette Nieves: 

That's right. 

Christina Hasaan: 

And they have no clue what the power of their opinion and their voice is because we're not uplifting it. When we look left and right, we in this room have to do better. I came to literally live the experience and I met so many amazing, wonderful people that could relate to me, that understood me, that gives me the power to then go back to Philly and number one, know that I'm capable. But number two, see that in everybody that I bump into every day. It's not just people in this room that are interesting and smart and invigorating. There's people around us all the time, and we don't give them that time because they don't have that linger with the CEO tag on it, right? But that's not okay. When we're talking about workforce and education in the future and what we want to build, we need community. We need to be together on this next step, whatever it may be. We can't be in rooms making decisions for each other without other people being there. 

Lisette Nieves: 

Wow. Thank you for that. Thank you for that. Evan, you get to take us home. All right. What is something you're going to do different when you go back? 

Evan Meredith: 

I think the biggest thing that I need to do is use my voice. I need to speak up. I need to meet with our recruiting team. I need to meet with our talent acquisition team. We need to start reviewing our job descriptions and really taking that red pen out and combing through line after line as far as what we're looking for, and seeing that many people out there have many different skills that can help benefit employers. And while I do agree that a degree is very beneficial and very empowering to have, I was not hired with a degree. I was hired based off of my skillsets. I was hired based off of how I carry myself and how I basically express myself in an interview and my metrics. I feel like we need to dig a little bit deeper. And my kind of call-to-action for kind of employers out there is let's work together and share amongst people that have the power to persuade the company on who they're hiring. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

Welcome back to our studio again. Kai, I want to turn to you for a final thought today. We heard in a previous podcast how companies are shifting their job descriptions and hiring practices to attract a higher and a broader pool of candidates. For those of us who aren't the CEO or who aren't the HR director, how can each of us make a difference at our places of work? 

Kai Drekmeier: 

I think it's really about individuals embracing introspection, taking responsibility and thinking "how can I be better? What is my role in this?" And I think everyone should be on their own equity journey and thinking about how they can be part of the creation of a more inclusive and just society. And so that means taking action and reaching out, and if it's awkward, own it and share that you're fighting through awkwardness to create better access and inclusion because you know it is right. The tendency is to feel nervous or awkward and do nothing, and we should do something. And if we make mistakes along the way, we can correct those. We can apologize. We can own them. 

So finally, we need to find ways to create and provide access so that all people get exposure and quality chances to practice and learn more and more repetitions, more time in the game exposed to professional situations and environments, that creates not just access but a well-prepared and frankly, more diverse workforce that's set up to succeed and thrive. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

Thanks so much for that, Kai, and I actually want to take it back to the original question and kind of reframe it a bit and really ask, what is it that CEOs and HR directors should do as employers to move us in this direction that you've just laid out? 

Kai Drekmeier: 

I think the role of leaders is unique. Number one, the first step is to not see all of this effort for greater inclusion and creating equity as something happening outside to other people, but as a process that one is going through as you make change yourself and rewire yourself on addressing these issues. And as part of that, it means not having this be a side initiative, but diversity, equity, inclusion, and social justice, moving core to the mission of the organization or core to how the business operates. And that means, if not daily, then weekly attention to this and to recognize a responsibility for resetting the culture of the organization to be one that is going to be highly effective as we move into the coming decades. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

Well, that's great. I'm glad we added that in so that we can have that fuller perspective of the responsibility of all of us to move towards this direction. So thank you for that. 

Kai Drekmeier: 

Thank you, Tameshia. I really appreciate you having me on the program. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

And thank you to our listeners for joining us for this episode of the Horizons Podcast. Please let us know what you thought about today's conversation by sharing a comment wherever you find your podcast. And we hope you'll join us in person in New Orleans for our 2023 conference, horizons presented by JFF. 

Registration is now open at horizons.jff.org. And the theme this year is Without Limits. I look forward to the conversation on our next podcast. For now, I'm your host, Tameshia Bridges Mansfield. 

Read Less