Banning LGBTQ Education Blocks LGBTQ Economic Advancement

TRANSCRIPT

Horizons podcast – Seasons 3, Episode 5 Philip McAdoo and Taylor Sprague

Philip McAdoo

It's hard. And I guess for me the hardest part is just the certainty, like the audacity that people have. They are so sure that they are right. That's so dangerous for me, for someone to feel like they have to take something away from someone else and just the certainty that they have in terms of the laws and the structures that they're putting in place on behalf of children and keeping them safe. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield

That was educator and activist Philip McAdoo, speaking with my colleague JFF director of strategy, Taylor Sprague, about the recent surge in anti-LGBTQ policy in states around the country. 

Welcome to the third season of the Horizons podcast. I'm your host, Tameshia Bridges Mansfield. 

State legislatures and school districts are rolling back decades of progress, intimidating and silencing queer adults and the vulnerable young people that they teach, and they're giving special attention to restricting the rights of transgender and non-binary people. This is all happening despite a landmark U.S. Supreme Court decision in 2020 prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity. 

According to the Center for American Progress, in 2022, half of LGBTQ workers said that they experienced some form of workplace discrimination, and one in three people of color report that they've experienced discrimination because of their sexual identity while applying for a job. 

As JFF works towards its North Star, quality jobs for 75 million people facing systemic barriers to advancement in 10 years, queer workers are just as much a part of that group. 

Taylor and Philip sat down in front of a live audience at the 2024 SXSW EDU Conference where creative ideas take center stage. 

Before we go to the recording, I have Taylor right here in the studio with me. Hi Taylor, and welcome to the Horizons podcast. 

Taylor Sprague

Hi, Tamisha, great to see you, and thanks for having me. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield

I'm very excited for this conversation and thank you for the conversation that you had with Philip. 

So, this conversation with Philip was really an opportunity to find some truth and some empowerment. So, can you just tell us a little bit about the work that you do at JFF, and how this conversation fits with the mission of JFF for queer workers? 

Taylor Sprague

Yeah, so I am the director of organizational strategy at JFF, and a core piece of my job is to help identify the most impactful opportunities for us to make progress toward our North Star and how we might achieve that progress. 

And when we talk about people facing systemic barriers to advancement, we must talk about queer people and especially transgender and non-binary people, especially in this moment. 

The 2022 U.S. Trans Survey, which is the largest survey of its kind, including over 96,000 trans people in the U.S., found that the unemployment rate for the people who responded is 18%, which was nearly six times the overall U.S. unemployment rate at the time that survey was conducted. 

This is the result of a number of systemic barriers, including high rates of youth housing insecurity, mental health challenges that stem from growing up in hostile environments at the family, community, and especially now systems levels, increased levels of discrimination by both educators and employers. There's so much work to be done to build an economy in which queer people can thrive, and our North Star at JFF can help make meaningful progress. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield

And I think whenever I hear that statistic about the experience of trans and non-binary people in the workforce, it's always really startling. And it's for all the reasons that you said. And as I reflect on the conversation that you and Philip had, I am curious about going into the conversation, what did you hope to get out of it? 

Taylor Sprague

Honestly, to have the conversation. For as much energy as I'm seeing on the anti-LGBTQ side, I haven't felt that I've been hearing enough pushback or discourse from those that do support queer rights. 

The goal of this conversation was to elevate these concerns, make people aware, and really begin to tie clear economic outcomes to these challenges. I cite the U.S. Trans Survey because there is no data that we can reliably track for trans and LGBTQ people at the federal level in the way we can for race categories, ethnic categories, binary gender categories, et cetera. 

This isn't all just about belonging, it's really all about safety, access to opportunity, and dignity. And if you're interested in digging deeper into some of the things that Philip and I were talking about in this conversation, I highly recommend subscribing to Erin In The Morning by Erin Reed on Substack. She's a transgender journalist providing incredible coverage of what's happening across the country. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield

And I definitely think that you achieved your goal in terms of elevating the conversation. You touched on so many things that I'm excited to dig into. 

And with that, I'm really excited to share this first part of two episodes about the continued struggle for economic advancement for LGBTQ workers and learners. So, thank you, Taylor, for being here in the studio and also for bringing the conversation to SXSW EDU. 

Taylor Sprague

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield

Great. And here is Taylor from the stage at SXSW EDU. 

Taylor Sprague

Hello everyone. Welcome to the live recording of the Horizons podcast. And before we dive in, I'd like to take a minute to dedicate this recording to Nex Benedict, the non-binary sophomore from Owasso High School in Oklahoma, who recently passed after being violently attacked by their peers in a school bathroom. And I hope that our conversation today can be one step, one small step, in ensuring a brighter future for trans youth everywhere. 

My name is Taylor Sprague and I am the director of organizational strategy at Jobs for the Future. And in that role, I help design and implement JFF strategy to achieve our North Star, which is helping 75 million people facing systemic barriers to advancement, achieve quality jobs by 2033. 

And my personal North Star is ensuring that LGBTQ people who've continued to face increasing systemic barriers to advancement are central to that conversation, a part of that conversation, acknowledging that building toward non-binary future is not just about pronouns and pride flags, but has really severe ramifications for the economic condition and opportunities for LGBTQ people everywhere. 

Today I'm super excited to be joined by my dear friend and colleague, Philip McAdoo. Philip is an educator that has dedicated his career to advancing equity and inclusion through his writing, his teaching, and his activism. 

In collaboration with Representative John Lewis, Philip has introduced legislation to Congress that streamlines the process for same-sex couples to adopt children from foster care. He's also the author of three books, Every Child Deserves, Darius Wants a Dog, and Independent Queers: LGBTQ Educators in Independent Schools Speak Out. 

Philip is also the founder and chief operating officer of Philip McAdoo Diversity and Inclusion Consulting, LLC, and currently based in Maryland with his partner Sean, his son, Zayden and their dogs, Bartley and Dobby, which I think is an adorable name for a dog. 

Dr. McAdoo, as you will see today, exudes confidence and an unwavering commitment to his work. 

Philip McAdoo

Well, I just remembered in that introduction that since I last saw you, I got married with... come on, do I get [audience applauds], thank you. 

It was 20 years later, so I felt the same way. We were like, "Oh, it's four o'clock, let's go in the backyard and get married." So that was fun, but probably the biggest thing that I am excited about is that I got to go to Florida to do some DEI work. Can you believe it? I was like- 

Taylor Sprague

What a place to do DEI work. 

Dr. Philip McAdoo

I know. They called me up and they said, "Listen, we have a problem." It was an independent school and they said, predominantly white, but there was a problem with the students casually using the N-word. And I was like, "Okay." 

And they were like, "Can you come in, give context, give history, and hold space for this conversation?" 

I said, "I absolutely can, but am I going to get arrested? Am I going to be on Fox News? Is this a setup?" 

And they were like, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, it's fine." 

And so, all right, I spent lots of weeks talking to them, prepping for my talks. So, I get there, I'm ready to go. I do my first talk. It was fun. Kids are great. I mean, I love, especially the middle school kids, they're so great, so engaged. And so, after my first talk, they were like, "The head of school wants to see you." 

And I was like, "Okay." So, it was like I had six talks in three days, so it was a crazy schedule. And so, I go in and heads of school, those of you are in independent schools, all kinds of weird stuff happened, but the head of school, she's sitting there and everybody looks like her in the school, so that's another thing. 

And she was like, "How did your talk go?" 

I was like, "Fine." 

And she was like, "Well," it's a little bit of Southern, bless-your-heartness to it. And she said, "It says on your website that you're an LGBTQ activist. What does that mean?" 

I said, "It means that I have a child, I have a family, and I think that every queer person should be able to have a child and a family. And so does the late John Lewis and I got to work with him." 

"Oh, well just don't talk about that with the kids. And I was like, Yeah, they don't need to know anything about you or your life and everything." 

And I was like, "What?" So, it was like that. It got to the point where I was like, "You know what? I'm going to read this damn PowerPoint and I'm going to go to the beach and I'm going to come back and I'm going to read the PowerPoint and I'm going to get my check and get out." I was just like detached. 

But the irony of the whole thing was that I could say the N-word, but I couldn't talk about being gay. I couldn't talk about my family or anything. So, it just shows you what our students are up against. 

Taylor Sprague

Yeah, taking all of the personal out of such personal and intimate work. 

Dr. Philip McAdoo

Right, right, right. And so, but when I think about... I'm also on the board of a school that we are trying to build middle school, starting to build for LGBTQ youth. And so, lots of different questions in terms of how do we keep them safe? What does it mean to create a queer space? And I'm even conflicted because, I don't know what it is, because we had a big conversation around bullying and that our school is going to be free on bullying. I'm like, "Oh, is that... really? Middle school, that's the thing in middle school. And so how can we promise that? 

And it was that our umbrella, we were only going to create this safe space because LGBTQ kids get bullied. I know it's much deeper than that, but it felt... I don't know, I'm still going back and forth with it. They keep looking at me, "Shut up, shut up." 

I'm like, "Okay, I just want to make sure we're holding realistic expectations." 

Taylor Sprague

And there's a question of intersectionality. You might even within group, there's of course so many dynamics, but then there's so many other... race can become a factor, class can become a factor, ability, there's so many things that can show up. So, it's interesting as we think about creating these safe spaces, what that means for actually being able to promise anything from that space and what our responsibility is when we build those spaces. 

Philip McAdoo

Yeah, yeah. You know what was interesting as you said that, I thought about in my book, Independent Queers, I interviewed over 40 LGBTQ teachers in independent schools. And it was interesting when we got to intersectionality, it was interesting the way the white queer folks were kind of stepping into it and saying that sometimes they stepped into their white identity. They kind of rely on it, right. 

Because one person said, "It's like, it's in my back pocket. I'm white, I'm good-looking. I always hide behind that in the career aspect, no one ever sees." 

And I also had a Black woman say to me, she said, "I feel safer being a lesbian in this environment than I do being a Black woman." 

And I said, "Oh, that was really interesting." So, it was this whole nuanced way in terms of intersectionality and what it really means. And some people can't even wrap their heads around that. So, I can't imagine being in Florida for example, and trying to introduce the concept of intersectionality to that environment. 

Taylor Sprague

And as you bring up Florida, I'm going to ask a loaded question. Thinking about the past year, what are some of the things that we've been seeing over the past year in regards to LGBTQ educators, LGBTQ experiences in schools? 

Dr. Philip McAdoo 

Yeah, and exactly going back to that lovely place that I was just visiting, the whole reason... I had no idea there was a circus of board members coming in. While I was given my talk, doing my thing, there was a whole firestorm that they were trying to put out because it said, "LGBTQ Activist." And they were trying to make sure that there wasn't a gay agenda. 

And a lot of this came from, there was a lesbian teacher working in the school who allowed her third-graders to have a conversation about lesbianism and what it means. She didn't conduct it, but she allowed it. So, she got put on administrative leave while they were looking into it. I had no idea that any of that was happening. But there are all of these laws, right, that are starting to impact the way that not only teachers show up, but the ways that we can support queer students. 

But also, yeah, the way queer students, it's tough enough to be a student, but can you imagine all these messages around you that are now starting to become legal that says that you don't belong or you're not accepted. So, it's hard enough to do math, but to have to really calculate your identity as a small person or a student. 

But also, what I realized too, that a lot of us as queer adults were having to navigate, again, going in and out of the closet for safety reasons, right, for safety reasons. I remember being in Africa with my husband, and they were like, "Oh, is this your brother, brother-in-law?" 

And I was like, "Oh, okay. That's a good one." We never thought about that one before, right? Because I assumed that maybe we weren't safe. And so normally affectionate me was like, "No, no, no brother-in-law. stay away from me. We want to make sure that we're okay." 

But the laws that we're starting to see pop up in Florida. And I think if you look at the ACLU, they're doing a good job in terms of tracking it. But it's hard, it's hard. And I guess for me, the hardest part is just the certainty, the audacity that people have. They are so sure that they are right. That's so dangerous for me, for someone to feel like they have to take something away from someone else. And just the certainty that they have in terms of the laws and the structures that they're putting in place on behalf of children and keeping them safe. 

Taylor Sprague

Yeah, it's terrifying. And these bills are growing in momentum. I think you mentioned ACLU. I think the number is at above 400 right now. That's actively tracking in this moment. And that number, I've not seen below 300 in the past year-and-a-half that I've kind of been obsessively checking. 

Philip McAdoo

Yeah, I think since 224, we talked about 2024, which is, it's just March now. So yeah. 

Taylor Sprague

And 180, so are those are directly related to school environments, and to education, and education rights. And it's showing up in almost, I think definitely more than half the country at this point. And each one of these bills is worse than the last. 

Philip McAdoo

Yeah. I think about my identity as a teacher and how people sometimes freely talk about their families, their children. And as queer folks, we're kind of locked into... I remember having a conversation with myself because the person next to me was talking about, "Oh, I was with my wife and my kids..." And then a student would come into my office and I would edit myself. I'd be like, "Oh, I didn't doing anything," wanting to, wanting to. 

And then finally I was just like, "Oh, my partner and I did blah, blah, blah." And I was like, "I can't do this work that I need to do if I'm hiding and being closed off." So, those are some of the things. And when I was talking to my teachers, a lot of them... Well, it's funny because I talked to two different teachers in the same school and they both never interacted with one another. 

And because I was doing my research, I couldn't be like... And so, one of them said to me, "There's this old sissy, I see him around, he never talks to me, he never talks to me." 

And then the older man was like, "There's this young gay kid just kind of flipping around here doing this thing." So, there was this envious kind of like they wanted to connect, but I know the older gentleman was like, "We just didn't talk about it." 

And still, we didn't talk about it. And oftentimes independent schools mark themselves as being a safe space. So, I really wanted to test that. So, I only spoke to teachers in independent schools and found that it was pretty uneven experience in terms of them feeling safe and protected. And then lastly, all of this started because I had an extremely negative and personal experience in an independent school. 

There was a big child pornography bust in our area that impacted one of our teachers, hugely popular teacher. And the students were devastated. And so, as an administrative team, we worked. We said, "Okay, how are we going to support the students? How are we going to talk about this?" And so, I love those moments in which you get to be vulnerable with students and really help them. And really help them. 

So, I remember we had a wonderful session in the morning, and we were walking to the high school to talk to the upper school kids. And this kid came up to me, he was like, "Is that what you do?" 

And I was like, "What do you mean?" 

He said, "Do you watch child porn? Is that what you do?" 

Taylor Sprague

Wow. 

Philip McAdoo

And I'm quick on my feet, go with the comeback. And I was just like, I was devastated. I went to my friend who was the counselor, and I was like, "This kid just said this to me." 

He's like, "you have to report it." 

And so, I go to report it... Oh, by the way, this kid is the head of school's son. 

Taylor Sprague

Oh, no. 

Philip McAdoo

So, I go to report it, and then the next day HR calls me in and they were like, "We want to talk to you. When you talk to people, do you look them in the eyes or do you look in their crotch?" 

And I was like, "What?" 

Taylor Sprague

Wow. 

Dr. Philip McAdoo

"When you tell someone that they are handsome, look handsome today, do you realize you make them feel uncomfortable?" 

And I was like, in that moment, I was like, "This is not even good homophobia. This is bad homophobia." And we had just adopted our son, and he kind of flashed before my eyes and I was like, "I'm done. I'm done." Right? It was all because I went to the dean and said the head of school's son. 

And the dean was like, "We're going to make sure there are consequences." And so that happened and I was like, "I wonder if there are other queer teachers who are having similar experiences?" 

And so, I was in grad school at UPenn at the time, and I went to my professor and he was like, "That's your dissertation. You got it. You got it." 

And so, I was really angry and hurt, but talking, the first conversation I had with the teachers, it really just kind of settled me in a way that I wasn't prepared for, because it wasn't about me, it was really about capturing these stories and making sure that people had a space and a platform to talk about what we were experiencing. 

And [inaudible] real quickly, I'm sorry, there were no rights. I had no rights. And I went to a lawyer and they were like, "You're at will. They can do whatever." And so, it was really hard for me to feel supported during that moment. 

Taylor Sprague

The work you're doing and have done is so important and it's so upsetting that we're still doing this. It is the sixties and seventies that California and many other states were trying to ban LGBTQ teachers from teaching because of all the concerns you just listed. And we're how many decades later? And we're still concerned about the same thing. And we're still in this ideology, and we're still relying on this sense of, "We must protect children, we must protect children, and so therefore we must erase all of these things that signal any sort of queerness." 

And I think what people don't realize is that when you ban symbols of queer identity, ban flags and bracelets. And even someone using their pronoun or gendered honorific, if they don't want to use Mrs. or Ms. and they use Mx. or anything like that, you're saying that you're just not allowed to exist in this space. 

And these laws have become a way for these states to legalize discrimination against queer educators and restrict access to employment despite the fact that any Supreme Court case isn't allowing that. And I think we go to this place of, it's a culture war, and we're just trying to keep school focused on school, and we are all in school, and we are all in education. We are part of this environment because we're human beings, and they're important parts of our experience. 

And so, the fact that we're still here and having this conversation and that it's only ramping up and continues to get more momentum is a lot. And so, I'm curious about the impact. You've spoken to this a little bit, but what is that impact for educators having to hide themselves? 

Philip McAdoo

Well, because there's also an otherness part component to it as well. It is almost like you're allowed to exist, but we're this kind of other thing that maybe on Sundays we'll go and have a drink with you and do a little drag brunch, or we're the gay uncle, or we kind of put us outside, to your point, in terms of this human experience. 

And I think the impact, I mean, just in terms of mental health alone, I finished my research in 2015, and it was the same year where we had same sex marriage. And I remember going to my advisor and saying, "Is this even relevant anymore? We're getting married now. Things are looking up. We're going to be fine." And then y’know, we are where we are, and still trying to push to have these stories be told or to look at young queer people who on the surface have so many ways to step into their identities, which we should be celebrating, but what types of messages are we sending them? 

So, the impact is we're just going backwards. The impact is that I feel like we're losing a lot of good teachers because they don't feel safe. They feel restricted in terms of how they show up for their students. And on the flip side, is we have a lot of good teachers who are choosing to be back in the closet because they feel like the students are worth it. They're sacrificing their own joy, their own professional development, because they believe someone needs to be here and fight for these students. So, I've seen a lot of that as well. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield

Taylor, that was just a really great conversation. I think you and Philip really touched on a lot of things from intersectionality to safety and progress. And I just want to thank you for holding the space that you did for you guys to be both vulnerable, but to also speak a lot of truth to what the experience is of queer students and queer teachers right now. 

One of the questions that I'm sitting with is what do you think the North Star should be for educational institutions to hold the safety of both students and educators? 

Taylor Sprague

Yeah, that's a great, great question. And I think it should be that all children and teachers have access to show up as who they are without fear of consequences for doing so. And that means physical safety. Of course, being able to use the bathroom without fear of breaking the rules, knowing they will be protected if someone harms or bullies them for who they are. It also means psychological safety, being able to speak up, share themselves, and participate fully without being dismissed, discriminated against, or left behind. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield

Yeah, and I think that whole notion of safety is something that gets lost in conversations both about learners experiences, but also about job quality. And I think you guys really elevated and highlighted why that is so important and why that's the key to progress. 

We'll continue this important exchange during Pride Month as our special guests wrap up their conversation on the stage at SXSW EDU. The discussion extends to protecting LGBTQ learners in the U.S. and abroad. Thank you, Taylor for bringing us part one of this candid conversation with Philip. 

Taylor Sprague

Yeah, thank you so much for having me again, Tamisha. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield

And thank you to our listeners for joining us in this episode of the Horizons podcast. Please let us know what you thought about today's conversation by sharing a comment wherever you find your podcast. And get ready for the Horizons summit, July 22 and 23 in Washington, DC. 

Registration is open at horizons.jff.org. I look forward to the conversation next time. For now, I'm your host, Tamisha Bridges Mansfield. 

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