Dual Transformation:
Creating a Better Tomorrow for Today’s Workforce

Transcript

Tyra Mariani: 

We think institutions of higher ed and others need to move really slowly, but the pandemic taught us we can actually move quicker than we thought that we could. 

Rachel Romer Carlson: 

What we hear from the 5 million Americans we work with is a really crisp articulation of the things they want from the future of work. They want pay, they want purpose, and they want pathways. 

Brent Parton: 

I think government found a calling in some way to get much more engaged in some of the national workforce problems we have, and it underscored how workforce development has national security, public health implications in really clear ways. And I think those are things that we'll take forward. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

Certain critical lessons from the pandemic could not be more clear. Disparities in wealth, education, opportunity, and safety proved devastating for millions of American workers who are now demanding change. So where do we go from here and how do today's businesses build a better tomorrow? We'll look closely at some of the efforts that are already in motion to create a more equitable workforce post-pandemic. We'll also look at how the approach of dual transformation can help. In other words, how can we all improve what we're doing today while planning for the work of tomorrow? 

Welcome to the Horizons podcast, where we take the inspiring discussions from the stage at Jobs for the Future's annual Horizons summit and invite a special guest to help us move that conversation forward. I'm your host, Tameshia Bridges Mansfield. Today, we will be joined by special guest Maria Flynn, president and CEO of JFF. But first, let's head to Horizons, where leaders from the private and public sectors discuss the wheels they have put in motion over the past few years to create a more equitable workforce. Brent Parton, principal deputy assistant secretary and acting assistant secretary for Employment and Training Administration at the U.S. Department of Labor, joins the panel. He'll outline some of the federal government's efforts in supporting workers in response to the pandemic. 

Tyra Mariani, president of the Schultz Family Foundation and a JFF board member, will discuss the moves that her organization took early on in the pandemic and continues to champion. But first moderator Hari Sreenivasan asks Rachel Romer Carlson, cofounder and CEO of Guild Education, what's next for businesses now that they are engaged in a new way of thinking about their responsibilities to workers? 

Hari Sreenivasan: 

Give me some examples of investments or engagements that you've made that were a result of this different type of thinking. 

Rachel Romer Carlson: 

Well, for us at Guild, we worked in health care two-and-a-half years ago, and a part of that is because it's a much harder sector to serve, the education and career mobility gap, because of the clinical work. Most of the employer partners we work with have 50-state strategies. They need national solutions. And when you're talking about a national solution for medical assist or nursing, it's a pretty complicated question. The pandemic forced us to say, "Okay, now's the time to do this," because health care employers were lining up at our door saying, "We're in a labor crisis. We have to address this issue." 

So, we've entered that vertical and it's now our fastest growing. We've launched a number of hospital systems and payers. But it really forced us to think differently with the universities and learning providers that we work with to say, "How can we have a 50-state solution?" And the real revelation that's come out of that is we actually need congressional action or some sort of regulatory change because it is too hard for organizations to train health care workers across multiple states today. So, it's led to a really, really great reveal of a bunch of issues and now we've got to figure out how to solve them. 

Hari Sreenivasan: 

Okay, so I'm going to bounce to you, Brent. I mean, so how do we tackle that not just at a 50-state, but a national strategy, and then make sure that that comes down into something that people can feel? Because at a local hospital or a local employer level, they are facing this labor crisis. 

Brent Parton: 

So, I mean, I think on one hand, labor markets are regional. Local problem-solving remains core to everything. That shouldn't be a cop-out for a lack of national action. I think for a long time, we thought, "Oh, solutions need to be local." And particularly from the government perspective, we're a funder, we're a regulator, and we're hands off. I think that the pandemic demonstrated that we actually have a much more active role to play in helping facilitate the type of local action that's needed, but at the same time, being a partner in innovations that scale. And there are pockets of things that are working. You see partnerships between industry, labor, education institutions that are overcoming those issues in every local community across the United States. 

The question is, how do we see more of it? How do we replicate it? And so, one of the things that we've been trying to do is create the space to convene partners that can be partners in scale. Again, industry associations in groups or labor partners across various different sectors, those have been key to engage, to bring local communities along to actually try to scale programs of work. So, I do think that there's a key role the government has to play in the convening space on that front. It has to get out of the way when it needs to and let those industry partners lead. But again, can't be afraid to engage in a way that I think go to the point around where we've seen the critical nature of all these industry sectors that we know we have to take action because of national importance. 

Hari Sreenivasan: 

So Tyra, what kind of investments have you made or what did you figure out that you could do faster? 

Tyra Mariani: 

Well, early on in the pandemic, we figured out that we could get basic needs like cash assistance to communities. And we were doing it, lots of us were doing it, faster than the government could. And so, I think that's a clear sign of doing something faster. And we've also, in the context, we started investing in national service of the pandemic where initially it was about helping communities because we weren't seeing the same kind of volunteers. Because of COVID, folks couldn't be out. And then, we started seeing states and local communities that wanted to innovate around using service as a pathway to operate mobility. 

And I think that's also really exciting, because if you think about the win-win of how do we serve communities, but how do we expose adults and young people to better wage-earning jobs and use an existing infrastructure to do that? That's the kind of momentum and innovation we've seen in this space in the last couple of years. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

Welcome back to our studio. I'm now joined by a very special guest, President and CEO of JFF, Maria Flynn. Maria, this is such great timing, and thank you for joining us for this final episode of the season. 

Maria Flynn: 

It's great to be here, Tameshia. It is an exciting time. We're almost at Horizons. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

We are. And it's always good to hear you talk about dual transformation. So, what we are hearing here are a couple of key themes from these leaders as they've assessed the changes accelerated by the pandemic. They range from more congressional and federal action to scale what works to enabling local and state entities to move faster on their own. And there's also a consensus that these learnings can be applied to the dual transformation approach. So first, to get us all on the same page about the potential of dual transformation, how do you define it in terms of transforming education and workforce systems? 

Maria Flynn: 

Absolutely. So, we really think of dual transformation as working to transform what exists today while at the same time, you're re-imagining and starting to build what can exist in the future. And this is something that we've been using as within JFF about how we think about our own organizational transformation and evolution, and then we also apply it as a lens to how we work to transform the field. And so, we really see dual transformation as a realistic and exciting approach that workforce and education systems can take so that they continue to leverage the best of the system today while re-imagining and planning for a more equitable system tomorrow. 

And as you mentioned, the panel at Horizons last year talked about changes that were turbocharged by the pandemic and things that really helped give them a boost to really spur their dual transformation work forward. And so, I think there were some really interesting examples of how COVID and the pandemic really spurred changes that we hope will last and not fall back into the status quo of how things were working before. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

And it speaks to, I think, what Tyra mentioned in that session around the disruption piece. And that to me, overhearing you talk about dual transformation over time, feels like it's a key piece of what that means and what that looks like when it's playing out. So key players like the Department of Labor, corporations, funders, and educational and training partners have really been working on transforming education and workforce systems for years, and even decades. What has changed to ensure that these optimistic leanings from the pandemic will be implemented and carried forward by many of these traditional players in the space? 

Maria Flynn: 

So, I think one important piece is to really see how we can support leaders in sustaining these changes, and whether that is things like flexibility within the workplace, whether it's use of technology within an education setting. But how can we really look to further evolve and sustain some of these innovations that we have seen over the past couple of years? And I think when we think about traditional and innovators or disruptors in the education and workforce space, I am a deep believer that we need the best of both of those worlds in order to see the true depth and scale of impact that so badly need. 

And that's really why five years ago, we launched JFFLabs here, within JFF, to bridge those traditional and innovation spaces in intentional ways and looking at ways for JFF to leverage and partner with mission-aligned entrepreneurs and investors who are looking to really change the education and workforce systems in different ways. So spurring change from the outside. And I think really looking to see how technology as it continues to evolve, can help provide education and training to learners and workers that is cheaper, faster, and more in tuned with worker and learners lifestyles that that will help ensure completion. 

But I think as we do that, as we need to ensure that those opportunities are provided in an equitable manner and that we are leveraging technology for good, so to speak, and thinking about how it can be implemented in ethical ways that help to bridge the divides that we see across our field. And then I think there are also established institutions. We've seen innovation within government agencies, foundations, workforce boards, education providers across the spectrum who have really worked to address some of these systemic barriers. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

And then, can you speak a little bit about what employers are doing in this space that is really speaking to this opportunity for dual transformation and the role that maybe skills-based hiring plays in that as well? 

Maria Flynn: 

Yeah, absolutely. So, we're seeing a lot of employers start to embrace skills-based hiring in exciting ways. I think large part spurred by the unemployment rates that we're seeing and the employer's desire to find more talent from new talent sources. So, it's again, how do we leverage this moment to really try to institutionalize and sustain these new ways of thinking, these new practices that we're seeing? And some of the work that JFF is doing with the business round table and with SHRM are great examples of leading organizations in the employer space, really working to drive new approaches to hiring, new approaches to building multiple pathways, and so on. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

And I think it's that how do all of the institutions in this space really lean into this? And I know a couple of the panelists spoke to what this moment has meant, particularly on the education space and what that looks like, and how do we design for learners in this new space about not necessarily wanting to go to an education environment. And so, can you talk a little bit about how you see post-secondary leaning into this moment? 

Maria Flynn: 

Yep, absolutely. So, I think we're seeing innovations and transformations in a number of spaces. So, one is with institutions like Western Governor's University or Southern New Hampshire University, National University, and others that are really embracing a skills-first approach and competency-based learning in new ways and providing models that work for a broad array of workers and learners. My husband got his four-year degree at the age of 55 at Southern New Hampshire University just about a year ago. And it was great to witness that firsthand. 

And then we're also seeing community colleges step up in new ways, like some of the work that your team is leading around the Google IT certificates and working to embed them in community college. IT pathways is a great example of taking a newer intervention and innovation and helping to embed that in a more traditional space. And then I think we're seeing portfolio companies within the JFFVentures portfolio and others of entrepreneurs who are really working to build new interventions. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

And it really is, I think, a response to both what the economy is calling for as well as a response of what workers are calling for, what communities are calling for, and that everyone is recognizing that while established institutions still have a function, they have to behave differently. And that we also have to leave room for innovation, and entrepreneurs, and new ways of thinking to also come into the space to even move us forward faster. And I think that's what has always intrigued me about the dual transformation approach that we embrace and that we get excited about seeing in the field when we're out. 

Let's head back to the stage at Horizons, where moderator Hari Sreenivasan turns a spotlight onto the need for change in educating those who are already on the job. Tyra Mariani of the Schultz Family Foundation takes on the question after Guild Education's, Rachel Romer Carlson. 

Hari Sreenivasan: 

These past couple of years, there were at least two conversations. There was one about the pandemic and there was one about what was happening in the streets. And from your different vantage points, what changes do you see in the education space that you think you can contribute to? 

Rachel Romer Carlson: 

Interestingly enough for us, one of the big conversations we were able to start having with employers was means testing their education and learning programs the way they've been legally required to do that in their health care benefits, their 401K, other wage systems. It's an interesting inverse of what I was just saying. This didn't require regulation. This didn't require someone saying they had to do it. They suddenly said, "Hey, we need to look at everything through a social justice lens. We need to look at everything through a lens of evaluating diversity." And what we found was classic tuition reimbursement programs, classic executive ed programs were demographically successful for one group, white collar, white male. And that's really limiting. 

And so, being able to open up that conversation to then track the data of which programs are actually driving equitable access to career mobility? Which programs are actually driving and creating opportunity to acquire skills for all of your workers suddenly became relevant. And as companies started making commitments to increase the diversity of their workforce, they realized, "Oh, our workforce is actually quite diverse. It's just unequally diverse. Our frontline represents the American populace. Our middle management and upper echelons don't." And so, then suddenly, career mobility skills acquisition becomes a part of that strategy. And so, the conversation over the last two-and-a-half years about race has been really powerful in driving some of those policy changes. 

Tyra Mariani: 

I think the other thing we've seen as well is an increase in the earn and learn, because initially we were really focused on, "Stop what you're doing, or put that aside and go learn, and then you're get the better opportunity." And I think with the staffing shortage that we've seen across the country is the seats that are filling up faster are the ones where you get to earn and learn, which, duh! But that's an exciting twist that I think we're just seeing that momentum move in that direction. And it's showing up in different kinds of programs and partnerships. 

Brent Parton: 

I mean, the family foundations always had that as part of their core. And what have the last couple of years done to make you focus on either a new category or different areas where you're making these investments? 

Tyra Mariani: 

Well, I think one of our learnings from the early days of doing the 100K coalition and where we're really pivoting, is it's not just about getting a job. We did work with Burning Glass, now, Burning Glass Institute, that told us that half of our young people who were getting entry-level jobs moved on to higher wages and the other half didn't. There's a churn that happens. And we also learned that employers really make a difference. We have work underway that is really thinking about, so what happens when you invest in education? And what happens if you have mentorship? Who's actually seeing results? 

So, we're both thinking about how do you move beyond that entry-level job to a pathway job as part of our conversation and what's the role of employers? How do we really start to shift and learn what employers are doing that really makes a difference? 

Hari Sreenivasan: 

Brent, Rachel said something interesting is that a lot of times there are regulations in place of things that employers have to do anyway. How do you create incentives for employers to be measuring this as well? 

Brent Parton: 

At the Department of Labor, we have two big picture missions. One is to make sure that we're protecting workers and making sure that bad actors aren't taking advantage of folks. The other is to support opportunity and invest in really making sure that folks have pathways to good jobs. I think that a very key focus on the latter, helping reinforce the former, I think has been key. What we're trying to do is take a holistic view across this and say, "Let's make sure these systems that invest significant resources in training, that can be significant access to points talent for employers, are being connected to the employers that are actually there and wanting to invest in their workers, wanting to invest in the mentorship, provide the earn and learn opportunities. And let's reward the employers that are doing the right things." 

That's going to take time. That's been an effort. For us, that's about centering those systems on equity from a perspective. To us, job quality is equity. And what we want to ensure is that, again, we're not just focused on landing someone in the job. But we're building very intentional partnerships with business and labor that are going to lead to good, quality jobs. Now, that's a good thing that helps those employers compete that are making the investments, doing the right things upfront. And for us, that that's a shift, because, frankly, we measure sometimes short-term outcomes. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

Welcome back to our studio. We're talking to special guest, Maria Flynn, the President and CEO of JFF, and carrying the conversation forward from the stage at JFF's Horizons conference. Maria, let's talk about the current state of the economy. How could it affect the federal government's role in shifting investments businesses are making in their employees? Where do you see room for optimism in this effort? 

Maria Flynn: 

It's a great question. I think there are a few places where we should be optimistic. So, one is around this moment where there are unprecedented levels of resources flowing from the federal government that can be tapped for workers, and workforce development, and talent development across many sectors. So, one is the amount of resources that are flowing out of the Department of Commerce for the Good Jobs Challenge and the Build Back Better Regional Challenge, and other initiatives coming out of commerce. But there's also a lot of funding coming around infrastructure around the Inflation Reduction Act provisions, all that are at their heart geared towards building better career pathways to opportunity for workers. 

That said, while I think it's a moment to be optimistic about that, it's also a moment to be very intentional about how we are planning and helping communities plan to receive and spend those resources. So, I think it's a moment where we have to be on our toes as a field, that we are using the resources in ways that will lead to the results that we hope to see. Otherwise, I think we run the risk of investing a lot of money for the status quo. So, I think it's a moment in time where the field can really rise up, and come together, and take advantage of this unique moment. 

As you know, there's also a lot of great momentum around the quality jobs or good jobs conversation. We're seeing a number of federal agencies incorporate language about quality jobs in their solicitations for the first time. We're seeing agencies and organizations like JFF sign on to common language around, what is a good job, and how do we start to measure good jobs? So, I think that's another thing to really be optimistic about and leverage in our work moving forward. It's a much different conversation than we were having 15, 20, 25 years ago when I was at the U.S. Department of Labor. So, I think it's an exciting moment, but one that we can't let just pass us by. 

And then the third would be similar to what I mentioned earlier around the shifts we're seeing in employer behavior, both in terms of how we're seeing more and more employers invest in their frontline workers. And Rachel, on the main stage that we're hearing from in this episode, and her company, Guild, is a great example of a provider that is really leveraging and helping workers take advantage of those investments. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

It sounds like from what you're saying, and I think from what we're seeing, particularly on the federal government side, the dollars are huge, but the action is where that happens. And that states and local places with the right capacity, with the right support, with the sense of urgency that I thought, well, that I do think and know that they have that can really move things forward for innovation. And then I think to your point, even with employers, that there is more energy, and more interest, and more investment. And it does all start with the idea. And it's like, "What is the support that employers need to take the statements and the intention and move it into action?" 

And I think there's a lot of opportunities for folks in the field to be supportive to provide resources and capacity building. And also, I think to provide that push also, to be like, "You can do it." That there is more and there that can help spur that urgency. 

Maria Flynn: 

Yeah, I agree. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

So, building on these examples of optimism, that's exactly where moderator, Hari Sreenivasan takes the conversation next. Let's head back to the stage at Horizons. 

Hari Sreenivasan: 

I want to just have all of you also look and tell us about what is working. I mean, when you look at the different spaces, what have you learned on the health care space that you just got into, but also across the other things that you've been focused on? What is working when it comes to tackling all of these different challenges that we've been talking about? 

Rachel Romer Carlson: 

How I look at it is we work with a lot of companies that have warehouse workforces. We've all read in the news about where that goes wrong and what a grueling job that can be. But there's also a lot of employers who are making that a step stone into jobs that are salaried, middle-class wages, et cetera. And I think that paradigm of our employers embracing a belief that the talent within their workforce is capable of more than whatever the first job they got at the company is, is really the difference. I think there's some Walmart folks here today, but they continue to amaze me. 

We've seen over 5,000 folks in their organization move from retail roles into taking health care education training programs, to move into health care roles at Walmart. That's how we're going to solve the health care crisis, is by helping cashiers, which is a job that's predicted to decline pretty significantly over the next 10 years translate those folks and the skillset and the competency of customer service into allied health care, which is bedside manner. But then they need to acquire technical skills. 

And so, the employers that are embracing that fundamental belief that a cashier can become a health care worker, are the employers that are going to change the labor workforce in the way America needs it to shift. 

Hari Sreenivasan: 

Tyra? 

Tyra Mariani: 

I think what's working is when I look at experiences, opportunities that are really transforming lives at its core, there are people, there are adults and systems who believe in the possibility, who believe in the talent. And time and time again, whether it's Climb Hire, or Exalt, or System in Colorado, it all comes back to seeing the humanity of people and to see what's possible, even if they're not packaged in the way that we're used to seeing success packaged. So, I think that's one piece of what's working. 

And I think we're also seeing better collaboration. No single organization, no single sector is going to solve this problem alone. We have to work together. And when we see the possibility coupled with that systems piece and the innovation piece, then we've seen success and we need more of it. So, to Brent's point, the question is really about scale. 

Brent Parton: 

I think I'll use an example. There's an industry called trucking that we've heard a lot about recently. And it's one, to be frank, someone who's worked in workforce for several years it's one where it's been challenging from a workforce system because of the nature of those jobs to address. What has been working, at least given the moment we're in, is when industry, and government, and other partners come together and really confront, what are the challenges in a sector that's driving the workforce constraints? I like to say trucking's like every other industry, only more so, where you have huge problems in terms of gender equity and access, including issues around sexual-based violence and harassment in the industry. You have huge issues around contingent labor versus employment models in that space. 

Also, it's just a hard job. It requires a lot of training and support. And the people who are trained and support stay in that industry. What we've been able to do is help work with industry to confront them. It works when industry is honest. It works when government is honest about where we've fallen short, where there's things in place, it's preventing the right things from happening. When that happens, it's possible to try new things, 'cause the status quo is not working for enough folks. And then from there, it's really building on what we know works, what we know works at the local level in our workforce system, earn and learn models, wraparound services to address those structural barriers. 

We know the secret sauce of how making workforce work. It's really finding spaces for really honest conversations that don't need to happen at a national level. They don't necessarily need to happen from one industry to another. But it has to start there with a very clear sense of, what are the problems that we're all trying to come together to solve for? And in this moment is a really unique opportunity to be able to do that. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

Welcome back to our studio. Again, I'm being joined by President and CEO of JFF, Maria Flynn. Maria, Tyra Mariani said it. We have to work together. That's what this discussion is about at its core. So how do we work better together and how might a collective dual transformation approach help? 

Maria Flynn: 

So, I think partnerships are key to the type of transformation that we all want to see. So, I think we need to continue to find ways to bring together leaders from our traditional existing systems and leaders from some of our newer models and new ways of doing business and find ways for them to be testing new approaches together. So, I think we have to, all of us in the ecosystem, need to look to see how do we play to our strengths and not try to do everything ourselves. I think that's even something that we're looking at within JFF, where do we best take a lead? Where do we best partner? 

And I think that that is something that all parts of the ecosystem struggle with at times, just because of the way resources flow. So, I think if we collectively look at how to leverage our strengths and how to partner in new ways, then we have the ability to build a better future together. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

I agree. Okay. I'm going to ask a completely off-the-box question. But I have a question that really gets to the partnership, and the innovation, and the dual transformation space. And so, just like if you were to close your eyes, what would be a dream crazy partnership that you think would really turbocharge? Not naming names or organizations, but the type of partnership that you think would get us to where we want to go. 

Maria Flynn: 

I think it would be something like for school districts to leverage some of the virtual work-based learning platforms so that we could be offering work-based learning experiences that are high quality and at scale. Things that could benefit students in rural areas or where just in-person learning may not be possible. I think it would be something like truly looking at skills-based hiring at scale within companies and not just looking at the point of hire, but looking at some of the new technologies that are providing better information on internal advancement paths as well. So really looking at skills-based advancement, not just skills-based hiring. 

So, those are a couple things that come to mind, but I think it is acknowledging that scale is historically such a challenge in the workforce space. And are there different ways to leverage technology to drive scale and equity at the same time? 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

No, I think that's great and I think it really connects with our upcoming Horizons. So, we're just a couple weeks away from the Horizons summit and this year's theme is without limits. So, what are you most excited about for those attending Horizons in New Orleans this year? 

Maria Flynn: 

So, I'm excited to really lean into the without limits theme. I think all of us can fall back into the routine of being tethered to our inbox and our to-do lists and think about why certain things cannot be done. And so, we really see Horizons as a two-day opportunity for folks to step away from all of that and be curious, and think creatively, to think without limits around what could be possible if we embrace new ways to partner and new ways to transform. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

Well, that's great. So, as you know, this is the final episode for our second season of the Horizons podcast. So, I want to really thank you for joining again and wrapping up the season this way. I've been enjoy this tradition of doing this this way. And so just thank you for joining us and I'm really looking forward to Horizons and I look forward to seeing you and everyone else who can make it. 

Maria Flynn: 

Thank you for being such a wonderful host. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

Thanks. 

Maria Flynn: 

I'll see you in New Orleans. 

Tameshia Bridges Mansfield: 

Exactly. I can't wait. And thank you to our listeners for joining us for this episode of the Horizons podcast. Please let us know what you thought about today's conversation by sharing a comment wherever you find your podcasts. And if you missed any of the second season or want a revisit any of the episodes, you can find them on demand at horizons.jff.org. I look forward to more conversations when we return for season three of the Horizons podcast in the fall. For now, I'm your host, Tameshia Bridges Mansfield.  

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