Transcript

Final Teaser: Michael, Sing Sing Correctional Facility 

Michael:  

When I first came to prison 20 years ago, all I thought was negative. I have life without parole, I'm never going home. So what's the point in doing anything? And then I come to Sing Sing and I get involved in a program like this and they start...and I'm like cool...they're doing a bunch of good things. So then I start to surround myself and engulf myself in this program— in the people involved in this program. And in doing so, it made me realize, not only was I failing myself, I was failing the people who cared about me and the people around me. My sentence shouldn't dictate my behavior and my growth. I can still be the best person I can be. 

Final Teaser: Kiki, Hudson Link Boutique 

Kiki Dunston:  

I wanted to make sure I created a brave space for folks to step into after incarceration. This gold mirror over here. I have a phrase that after they get outfitted, I’ll say ‘swag to the mirror.’ This is the first time they’re able to really see a real glass mirror, because [in prison] it’s the clown mirrors. So, to actually see...people start to cry, to see themselves in different colors, to be the person, to put the stuff on themselves.  

SPEAKERS 

Kristina Francis, David Soo, Brian Fischer, Brian Hooks, Sean Pica, Lucretia Murphy, Michael, Kiki Dunston, Morgan Godvin, Jesse Crosson, Anthony Scarduzio. 

  

Kristina Francis  00:00 

America has the sixth-highest incarceration rate in the world. More than two million people are behind bars at any one time, and 95% will reenter society. But finding a job can be an impossible task. 

  

Brian Fischer  00:15 

When people go home with education, it's different than when they go home without an education. 

  

Kristina Francis  00:20 

Too many people returned to prison after serving time, but there is a more equitable pathway to change. 

  

Brian Hooks  00:27 

You see this huge untapped pool of talent. 

  

Kristina Francis  00:31 

Jobs for the Future is headed to New York State to learn how one program is drastically reducing recidivism and improving lives. 

  

Kristina Francis  00:50 

Welcome to Horizons on the Record. I'm Kristina Francis, Executive Director of JFFLabs, the insights, incubation and investment arm of JFF. 

  

David Soo  00:57 

And I'm David Soo, a Vice President at JFF.  

  

Kristina Francis  01:00 

JFF works at the federal, state and local levels, supporting policymakers, educators and systems to transform workforce and education systems. 

  

David Soo  01:08 

And we're here today in Ossining, New York, where we're going to learn about a program run by formerly incarcerated individuals to provide education, college degrees, and wraparound supports. 

  

Kristina Francis  01:36 

Stay up to date with all of JFF's work across the country, and send us your thoughts and questions on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook.  

  

Kristina Francis  01:45 

Hudson Link is a nonprofit run by formerly incarcerated people to provide college degree-granting programs inside and outside prisons. They provide education, life skills, and reentry support. Hudson Link operates in correctional facilities across New York State. They also partner with accredited colleges to deliver undergraduate education. The aim is to provide a program that follows each student from pre- to post-release, and subsequent reentry support to reduce recidivism, restore families, and rebuild communities. 

  

David Soo  02:22 

And we're here at Hudson Link with Sean Pica, the Executive Director. 

  

Kristina Francis  02:25 

So, tell us about the success of the program. 

  

Sean Pica  02:28 

So, we've been bringing college into prison, about seven different prisons here in New York for about 25 years. We have an incredible success rate, less than 2% of the students have come back to prison. So, a 2% recidivism rate. And what we're doing is we're bringing accredited degree-granting college programs into the prison system here in New York. 

  

Kristina Francis  02:45 

So, it's not just about the education that you're providing. It's about some of the wraparound supports. Tell us more about that. 

  

Sean Pica  02:51 

So, there are programs like ours that bring college into the prison. And that's where the services end. We've made sure that aside from bringing degree-granting college programs in, we also do reentry programming, housing, construction initiatives, employment opportunities that wraparound with that housing. Every student that comes out gets a laptop, a cell phone, a welcome home bag. We have a boutique, which means that the students upon release, go to a unique shopping experience, exclusive to them with no cash register. So, everything's for free. 

  

David Soo  03:23 

So, it takes a lot of folks to put on that kind of work. Can you tell us a little bit about your offices here? 

  

Sean Pica  03:26 

Yeah, so we have 21 folks working here in the building, our team is doing reentry work, our case managers, our continued ed counselor, all these folks are working on a daily basis with our students that are home. Over 1500 men and women, alumni, now home out of prison. 70% of our staff are formerly incarcerated. Every one of the site coordinators that goes back into the prison, went through the program. 

  

Lucretia Murphy  03:50 

We're here at Sing Sing to learn about their college programs in prison. One of the things that we know is that with Pell being restored, it's going to be really important that people understand not only the importance of college and prison, but how it's done. How do you ensure there are quality programs? How do you ensure people are getting access to both the education and the general resources that are needed?  A computer lab, for example. 

  

Brian Fischer  04:40 

It's important to know that the affiliation with the colleges made the difference. 

  

Lucretia Murphy  04:45 

Now that Pell is being restored, there might be more colleges that are thinking about getting involved. But also, more departments of corrections — more superintendents or wardens. What would be your recommendation from that perspective when you talk to colleagues about post-secondary education in prison? 

  

Brian Fischer  05:02 

You have to tell the colleges the value of connecting to a correctional facility. And I have to tell wardens and superintendents and systems, the value of a college education. So, both sides have something to go— a little skin in the game. 

  

Brian Fischer  05:17 

For prisons, one of the things that has always been our selling point if you would, that it changes the atmosphere of a prison,  when men and women who have done everything they can, and they want an education, by providing that, we set a different tone. That, it's a prison but while in prison, you can get an education, because, as you know, 99% of the people incarcerated are gonna go home. So, the reality is, society should be supporting both of us. 

  

Lucretia Murphy  05:17 

Right. 

  

David Soo  05:47 

So JFF's work is all about economic advancement for all and I can really see how this is a living embodiment of providing economic advancement for the folks that you work with. 

  

Sean Pica  05:56 

We have almost 200 men and women working on pre-college college. And even though like the word recidivism keeps coming up, it's really about employability. Like, if you get through this, you're credentialed, you get out, you're now bringing those credentials and giving you more employability. And we're seeing, especially here in New York, where these degrees are realistic, 86% of the students end up in the social services field employed. And then, if you're employed, you have credentials, your life changes. And it really shifts, what you've done in the community, what your past looked like, and what your future is gonna be. 

  

Brian Hooks  06:28 

My name is Brian Hooks.  I'm the Chairman and CEO of Stand Together. We're a philanthropic community— hundreds of business leaders, philanthropists, people who have been wildly successful in their own lives, who are coming together, and are joining up to try to help others to succeed as well. We want to remove the barriers that are holding people back, invest in people, empower people from the bottom up, so that they can succeed by helping others to succeed. Do we want to live in a country where we believe that everybody has the opportunity to contribute, or do we want to live in a country where only a few people have that opportunity, and we sort of narrow and exclude people from sort of the American dream. And so, when you look at the world that way, you know, our choice is pretty clear. We want to live in a country where we believe that everybody has the ability to contribute if they're given the opportunity to really realize their potential. I think the biggest way that we can help ensure that people who are coming out of the criminal justice system find a way to contribute is by investing in education, and bringing the business community into the solution-helping businesses find a way to hire and really kind of help people who are coming out of the system find their potential through a meaningful job. 

  

Michael  06:32 

I'm sentenced to life without parole. And this is the only program that affords me the opportunity to pursue a higher education. I don't— it doesn't make good sense to me why, but I'm so grateful for the program. And in doing this program, it helped me change me. It helped me grow and become the best me that I can be. When I first came to prison 20 years ago, all I thought was negative. I have life without parole. I'm never going home. So, what's the point in doing anything? And then I come to Sing Sing and I get involved in a program like this and they start, I'm like cool, they're doing a bunch of good things. So, then I start to surround myself and engulf myself in this program in the people involved in this program. And in doing so, it made me realize, not only was I failing myself, I was failing the people who cared about me and the people around me. My sentence shouldn't dictate my behavior and my growth. I can still be the best person I can be. I'm actually about to receive my bachelor's degree as the valedictorian, I have a 3.9 GPA— hard work, very difficult. But I'm just like, and it's weird, because I always loved school. It's just my choices at the time was bad. And now that I have the chance to do it, and it's not even [like] I'm pursuing it for myself, I get more thrill out of helping my classmates. 

  

Kristina Francis  09:38 

Stay up to date with all of JFF's work across the country. And send us your thoughts and questions on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. 

  

David Soo  09:46 

So, you were able to go into Sing Sing yesterday. Can you tell us a little bit about how that was? 

  

Lucretia Murphy  09:50 

We were able to go to Sing Sing to really be able to see firsthand the college education program that the Hudson Link team in partnership with their department of corrections there able to offer for the people who are incarcerated. It was a male facility so all the people there were men who had been in the program. 

  

Kristina Francis  10:07 

One of the things that JFF is really focused on is economic advancement for all. But when we think about those who have records, who have experienced incarceration, and the supports that are needed, tell us a little bit more about what the center is doing and looking at from that perspective. 

  

Lucretia Murphy  10:22 

One of the things that we really are committed to is to make sure that economic mobility is the North Star for people with records; that we're not just trying to make sure they do what it takes to stay out of jail, but that they really are setting a course for themselves. So that really requires in today's economy that you have a post-secondary credential that really has value in the labor market. And so, the work that we're seeing here at Hudson Link shows how people getting college degrees can really help prepare them. But then there are big hurdles when you get out.  How do you make sure that you can get a job and that still is a barrier even for these men and women who are coming out with college degrees. 

  

David Soo  11:01 

At JFF we think a lot about high-quality jobs, that's really our North Star. How do you think about that differently in this context? 

  

Lucretia Murphy  11:07 

When we talk about quality jobs, we're talking about wages that help sustain a family. We're talking about the autonomy to set your work and the work that you want to do. We're talking about kind of the level of worker respect and integrity to work that we think is so important. And it should all also be the same for people with records. I think what may be different is that pathways might be different. It might be that people with records who have not had an opportunity to work, or had an opportunity at different kinds of industries, because of the way that work has changed so much if someone's been incarcerated for years. They may start in a place where maybe they don't get a living wage, but they should still be treated well. They should still have some autonomy.  They should still be able to demonstrate the skills they have and have the ability to move up. And I think maybe charting that pathway is really important. 

  

Kristina Francis  12:05 

Stay up to date with all of JFF's work across the country, and send us your thoughts and questions on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. 

  

Kristina Francis  12:24 

We've talked a lot about legislation and what's in fact needed for people to successfully integrate back into life after prison. 

  

David Soo  12:30 

And the first thing they're gonna need to do is a job interview.  

  

Kristina Francis  12:33 

Tell us a little bit more about this space. 

  

Kiki Dunston  12:35 

The boutique is a place where our students, when they return back to their communities, they usually stop here.  This is the first stop. So, I usually outfit each person, depending on what their likes are, and most folks don't know what they like after incarceration, because their staple color was green. So, the inspiration behind that is to have each person wear colors that they couldn't wear— that were forbidden. So, coming in, I  just want them to walk around but also have that feeling of not being overwhelmed. And I like to call this a brave space for folks. So, anything from toiletries, accessories, business attire, and I realize not every person is going to a family's home. They're either going to halfway houses or shelters, so I tried to diversify the, you know, the wardrobe here. 

  

Kristina Francis  13:25 

Do you find that when people come here as one of their first stops that it's a hard transition to think about themselves and to want more? 

  

Kiki Dunston    13:32 

It is. And let me tell you what's so beautiful about all our alumni. I can say listen, there's no quantity. Take what you like. You're here. It's your time. It's all about you. This gold mirror over here, I have a phrase that after they get outfitted, I'll say 'swag to the mirror.' It's the first time they're able to really see a real glass mirror. Because it's the clown mirrors. So, to actually see, people start to cry... to see themselves in different colors... to be the person to put the stuff on themselves. 

  

Kristina Francis  14:03 

Kiki, thank you so much for showing us around this amazing space. We know it's going to be a safe haven. 

  

Kiki Dunston   14:07 

Thank you so much and thank you for stopping by. 

  

David Soo  14:09 

Yeah, thanks for having us. And JFF traveled to Houston where we learn about more people who are reintegrating into society, and they're using social media to help with that transition. 

  

Jesse Crosson 14:24 

My name is Jesse Crosson and just after my 18th birthday, I committed a robbery and unrelated non-fatal shooting. So, I was in prison from just after my 18th birthday until August of 2021, almost 19 years. And I enjoyed incredible opportunities and resources provided by family and friends and the community that I came from. And a lot of people didn't have those same opportunities and resources. So, both in the experience of incarceration as well as in the experience of reentry, I had these opportunities and I really want other people to have them because I saw that my experience was so dramatically different than other people's. And I just think that's fundamentally not only unfair, but kind of against the interests of rehabilitation. 

  

Morgan Godvin  14:59 

Hi, I'm Morgan. I'm formerly incarcerated, I thought I would get out of prison, get a job making $20 an hour, and be content scraping by for the rest of my life. And I live a life today that I never even imagined would have been possible because my imagination was so limited by the defeating things people around me said. 

  

Jesse Crosson 15:25 

Getting out of prison was this massive transition. It was something that I thought a lot about, and I thought I was prepared for it, but I realized that despite all that I was, I was totally unprepared for it. My then girlfriend had said, 'Hey, I really think you need to tell your story.' You know, we were working on this podcast over the phone when I was still in, and so she asked me to record something. So, I went to the top of the mountain where I had said, I was gonna go to kind of like, let down my trauma, like scream and cry, and like, let go of the past time. And I recorded a video that ended up going kind of viral on TikTok. And from then I started doing social media on a regular basis, and it ended up turning into much more than I expected. 

  

Morgan Godvin  15:56 

And since the day I got out, I've been just tweeting and doing writing freelance opinion pieces, and more recently getting on TikTok, and just sharing weird prison stories and always trying to weave in that social justice narrative, because I always felt when I was inside, if the people could see in, they wouldn't let it stand. 

  

Jesse Crosson 16:18 

What is it that I need? And what is it that other people need? And how can we best provide that. And my focus was really on trauma informed care, and DBT, which are the essential like life skills or emotional regulation skills, kind of more broad than that but that's the general idea. The problem was that I'm trying to go to people who don't have housing or don't have employment, or don't have even food security and say, 'Hey, let's talk about your trauma.' When the reality is we need to focus on that kind of base of the hierarchy before we can actually begin to delve deeper. And that's why we started doing prison reentry classes where we're trying to teach life skills and kind of principles that are going to allow people to build that foundation from which they can heal and move forward. But again, most of the time, we focus on that initial phase, we say, 'Oh, we're gonna give them housing, we're gonna give them a job'. But that doesn't deal with the trauma that was there in the first place. 

  

Morgan Godvin 16:57 

I think the reinstatement of Pell is going to be enormous. That happened so long ago, by the time I got incarcerated, it felt like something that had just always been, we finally have an opportunity with the reinstatement of Pell Grants, to get back to a culture of education and a culture of rehabilitation inside of our prisons. 

  

Jesse Crosson 17:18 

When you give people new skills, when you teach them to do trades, when you teach them to tutor other people, when you provide actual educational opportunities through work, I think that's a very different thing. I think that's the kind of work we can focus on.  

  

Morgan Godvin 17:28 

Do you want to be judged for the worst thing you've ever done perhaps 20 or 30 years ago, or your job competency today? That is what has always baffled me is— people, we are still punishing people for crimes they committed as teenagers. Decades later.  The person they are today can be— is so totally different than the person they were the day they committed that crime. 

  

Jesse Crosson 18:00 

I think education is the key to liberation. And ultimately, the goal is to work to create a criminal justice system that is equitable, effective, and humane. 

  

Brian Hooks  18:06 

And so, what we've learned through partnership with groups like the Society for Human Resource Management, other business organizations, when they poll CEOs and business leaders, over 80% of them say that, in their experience, people coming out of the criminal justice system contribute at or above the level of anybody else.  You know, somebody's got to meet with their parole officer, you know, once or twice every week at a certain hour. Well, the business can ask itself, can we accommodate that? You know, in some cases, you can't. In some cases that person has got to be at the business during that time. And it means they're not the right fit for the role. But often, it's not that big of a deal, to say, 'You know what, we want to support you in your reentry. And we understand that you got to meet with this parole officer. You can make up the hours some other time, and it's not going to detract from your ability to contribute to my business.' But even just getting your head around that, you know, thinking about that as an HR professional. Is that something that we want to do with our business? It's helpful, you know, to kind of have these toolkits and to just think through this in terms of making this happen. 

  

Kristina Francis  19:19 

We're here today with Anthony Scarduzio. Anthony, tell us where we are. 

  

Anthony Scarduzio 19:32 

Today we're on a construction site with new beginnings. This is one of four houses that we are renovating. 

  

David Soo  19:39 

And what's the house going to be when it's done?  

  

Anthony Scarduzio 19:40 

When it's done, we're going to make this a men's house. It's going to be six men living in here. And then we're on to the next project. So, when we first bought the house, it was a disaster. We just gutted the entire house. And we came up with a new floor plan. You're standing right now in the living room.  

  

Kristina Francis  20:06 

I can see the vision. 

  

David Soo  20:08 

Couch over here, TV on the wall.  

  

Anthony Scarduzio 20:11 

There's actually gonna be a bathroom right there and the bedroom will be here. So, the men that are going to be living here, we run a reentry program called New Beginnings and they're coming out of the state  prison facilities. 

  

David Soo  20:23 

And so, everyone who's on site here today is part of the program?  

  

Anthony Scarduzio 20:25 

Yes, they are all in the reentry program. When they come out, they, if they want to work in the construction field, we welcome them with open arms, we bring them in, we have local contractors come in and do everything by code and whatever trade that the men or women would like to be in, they shadow, and they get their hands on experience while we're building this. And what's good, some of them are gonna actually live in this house and they're building it themselves. 

  

Kristina Francis  20:54 

So, Anthony, thank you so much for walking us around the project. What is this day?  Day three? So, we cannot wait to see the end result. We believe at JFF that this is a program that can be replicated across the U.S. with so many communities that need it.  

  

Brian Hooks  21:08 

So, when you look at a problem as big as the problems in the criminal justice system, I think it's a fair question to ask, can we afford to really do what's necessary to transform the system? I'll ask the question back; can we afford not to do it? When you look at the economy today, and when you look at the global competitiveness, and then you consider the fact that in our country, one in three Americans has a criminal record. And the current system basically asks them to sit on the sidelines in the economy, we exclude them from participating in the country participating in the lives of people in a way that can help to improve their lives. I just don't see how we can afford to not change the system, to bring those people in and offer them the opportunity to realize their potential and make a difference. You think about the labor shortages that so many companies are experiencing right now, we got plenty of people who are very talented and ready and willing to work. We need a much more diverse set of options for people who want to get the skills and the training that they need to find the next job. 

  

Kristina Francis  22:13 

Stay up to date with all of JFF's work across the country. And send us your thoughts and questions on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. 

  

Lucretia Murphy  22:25 

So earlier, we were at a house that was just a shell. Now we're at a house that's been completed. So, this house is for women alum of Hudson Link, a really exciting development. Often women don't have as many resources once they come out because the system has kind of been built around what men need. But here is a house for women to be able to live together. Again, it's very close to Hudson Link to be able to access the resources that they might need. One difference and this is something that is often a challenge for women is when they go in, they're often moms. And when they come home, a real priority for them is to be able to bring their families together at this house, the children can't live here, but they can come here to visit. And so, women who are here are working to get themselves on a really good financial footing, social footing so they can reunify with their families and be able to transition home. 

  

David Soo  23:17 

So, we've seen so much here at Hudson Link and across the country. What do you think the next generation of this work looks like? Where is this all going in the future? 

  

Lucretia Murphy  23:25 

Well, you know, the numbers are huge, right? 77 million people have an arrest or conviction. They're estimating by 2030 it could be 100 million. The next is  let's replicate these kinds of programs, right? How do we ensure that more people who are incarcerated are getting access to college in prison, but also really expanding the work of reentry? So, it's not just Hudson Link being ahead of the curve. It's the system kind of being ahead of the curve. And one real important piece of that is policy. How do we make sure that there are policies in place that eliminate barriers for people coming out— expunge records, automatic expungement- also really help incentivize employers to hire as well. So, I think in the next generation, we really want to be thinking about how scale not only impacts the lives of individuals, but also really changes and reimagines the system. 

  

Kristina Francis  24:14 

If you want to follow us and learn more about the work we are doing in our Center for Justice and Economic Advancement and what you saw today, follow us on social. 

  

David Soo  24:22 

And from Ossining New York, Goodbye. 

Kristina Francis  24:23 

Goodbye. 

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